Let's go back to the beginning because only a few of us were there.
We shot the rules in accordance with only one of the many set of rulebooks out there because we thought the IBS had all the answers. We found it that the were some really big holes in the way they did things but more importantly we started to lose people. A number of us had competed overseas and enjoyed shooting the 1000 yard game there.
In the UK they use a semi-marked system on normal Fullbore targets.
So we trialled marked targets. People started to enjoy themselves again and to learn things. And the things they learned have trickled into other long range shooting disciplines as the knowledge required to shoot tight groups and high scores on the 1KBR target transcends a single discipline. The the overall results compared do not favour any particular system.
Amusingly, this marked approach then become a game of absolutes. The nay-sayers started by saying - marked will never shoot a small group.
Then I shot the smallest group on this target in Australia - hey want to know something? When there is only one disk in the target it exactly the same as shooting blind. I know because I shoot both.
Deal with it. Grow the sport. Before you slavish want to follow the US, go over there and see how the many different variations of 1000 yard benchrest work. All I know is that the UK and Australian numbers increased when they stopped believing the IBS was the only arbiter of anything.
ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Results
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Mr Wookie, Well i was there from 2000 till now and do not agree that you fixed anything, in fact you have created a division..In NOV 2004 the decision to change the face of AUS 1000yrd BR was made in Canberra with NO repeat NO consultation with the shooters .. At that time there was only 2 ranges in AUS that shot 1K, i was the shoot captain at the time and we in Townsville knew NOTHING about any changes until the ones that shot down your way started to phone up in disgust..
If the boot was on the other foot ,and i some how found a way to change the F/class rules so i could compete with my Unlimited 68lbs Heavy Gun in F Open and shoot blind how much of an outcry do you think we would hear
*** Let's go back to the beginning because only a few of us were there.***
Nobody up my way has ever said that you will never shoot a small group marked , but i will go on record to say that there will never ever be a great Aggregate shot .. Consistently since i started this sport i have known that just as there is a possibility of of the shots being blown out of the group that there is also a possibility of those shots being Blown into the group .. That said the probability of it happening 2wice in one day or with 6 targets in a year has piss poor odds indeed..
I have so far shot in AUS the smallest 10 shot group and thats fine , i know that it could have just as easily been created by the conditions..
BUT the 6 match AGGS and the 10 match i have shot year after year could never be regarded as luck
***Amusingly, this marked approach then become a game of absolutes. The nay-sayers started by saying - marked will never shoot a small group.***
***Then I shot the smallest group on this target in Australia - hey want to know something? When there is only one disk in the target it exactly the same as shooting blind. I know because I shoot both.***
The simplest approach would be to offer to separate Blind from marked in the results because in my neck of the woods if you bring your F open 284w gun to our range then your going to be shooting against me in Heavy Gun because of the 10 kg weight and if history is anything to go by you won;t come back for a second time .. This is what i find the most disturbing part of this set up.. Opinions by me..JR..Jeff Rogers
If the boot was on the other foot ,and i some how found a way to change the F/class rules so i could compete with my Unlimited 68lbs Heavy Gun in F Open and shoot blind how much of an outcry do you think we would hear
*** Let's go back to the beginning because only a few of us were there.***
Nobody up my way has ever said that you will never shoot a small group marked , but i will go on record to say that there will never ever be a great Aggregate shot .. Consistently since i started this sport i have known that just as there is a possibility of of the shots being blown out of the group that there is also a possibility of those shots being Blown into the group .. That said the probability of it happening 2wice in one day or with 6 targets in a year has piss poor odds indeed..
I have so far shot in AUS the smallest 10 shot group and thats fine , i know that it could have just as easily been created by the conditions..
BUT the 6 match AGGS and the 10 match i have shot year after year could never be regarded as luck
***Amusingly, this marked approach then become a game of absolutes. The nay-sayers started by saying - marked will never shoot a small group.***
***Then I shot the smallest group on this target in Australia - hey want to know something? When there is only one disk in the target it exactly the same as shooting blind. I know because I shoot both.***
The simplest approach would be to offer to separate Blind from marked in the results because in my neck of the woods if you bring your F open 284w gun to our range then your going to be shooting against me in Heavy Gun because of the 10 kg weight and if history is anything to go by you won;t come back for a second time .. This is what i find the most disturbing part of this set up.. Opinions by me..JR..Jeff Rogers
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john mc
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Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Hi All as a shooter that likes to shoot 1000yd events at a few ranges in australia i am very glad that i have the the right to choose the way i want to shoot either marked or blind but the only way i want to shoot is the traditional way BLIND i like shooting in the postal shoot with the yanks and being able to compare my scores with theirs
i do not think that the two ways of shooting should be mixed in the one detail and the final scores should be separated into the classes of marked shooters and blind shooters
the fact that some shooters want to shoot marked is not a problem at all to me -- if it means that more shooters can enjoy the 1000 that is great -- we need more competetors to grow our sport -- more shooters breaks down to more new guns ( light and heavy ) more ideas on how to make these guns shoot better -- which ends up in better scores and smaller groups -- great for the sport
but it still remains that there are two ways to shoot the 1000 yd match
shoot it like the yanks do
or shoot it like F-class off a bench
john mc
i do not think that the two ways of shooting should be mixed in the one detail and the final scores should be separated into the classes of marked shooters and blind shooters
the fact that some shooters want to shoot marked is not a problem at all to me -- if it means that more shooters can enjoy the 1000 that is great -- we need more competetors to grow our sport -- more shooters breaks down to more new guns ( light and heavy ) more ideas on how to make these guns shoot better -- which ends up in better scores and smaller groups -- great for the sport
but it still remains that there are two ways to shoot the 1000 yd match
shoot it like the yanks do
or shoot it like F-class off a bench
john mc
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
I think the ultimate hypocrisy in all this is that the main convener of the marked system recently shot a match and won it using the blind method of shooting. So you drum it into the troops to shoot one of the two choices then choose the other to bolster your own list of achievements. A great way to reinforce the statistics of the blind method and unsettle the ranks. No doubt he will inform us of "choices" in the rule book.
While i acknowledge the 2.0 group shot by Richard as the LG benchmark in Aus, it should be pointed out that every other single group and score aggregate record is not part of the marked world. So this group alone has been used relentlessly to gain traction on this and other unrelated debates. It should also be noted that Richard at that match did not win the over all standings.
As for me personally, the notion of the marked system holds little value in this sport. It has proved itself to be inferior in both the score and group results as opposed to the other option. Since its inception, the gap between the club that has held steadfast to the original concept has opened a yawning gap in all the 6 match aggregates when compared to the other two clubs, and when looked at closely, the first couple of years showed a considerable drop in aggregates, especially in the group area. This year the HG group agg has already been lowered, and both my existing six match group and score aggs in LG will be eclipsed by Eric where the group agg will be under 5 inches and the score agg will be over 291. The common denominator in these achievements is not our range but an acceptance that there is a way to do this and that with the right approach it can be productive.
The approach of having fun in all this is great and by all means go out and spend 10Gs or more on a gun and have fun. But if it is about competition, look a little closer at the results sheet nation wide.
If it is after all about having fun, then why the argument? Only competitive people should be arguing over this crap. If you want to have fun, shoot it anyway you wish to, i really don't care. Just don't sell me bullshit.
While i acknowledge the 2.0 group shot by Richard as the LG benchmark in Aus, it should be pointed out that every other single group and score aggregate record is not part of the marked world. So this group alone has been used relentlessly to gain traction on this and other unrelated debates. It should also be noted that Richard at that match did not win the over all standings.
As for me personally, the notion of the marked system holds little value in this sport. It has proved itself to be inferior in both the score and group results as opposed to the other option. Since its inception, the gap between the club that has held steadfast to the original concept has opened a yawning gap in all the 6 match aggregates when compared to the other two clubs, and when looked at closely, the first couple of years showed a considerable drop in aggregates, especially in the group area. This year the HG group agg has already been lowered, and both my existing six match group and score aggs in LG will be eclipsed by Eric where the group agg will be under 5 inches and the score agg will be over 291. The common denominator in these achievements is not our range but an acceptance that there is a way to do this and that with the right approach it can be productive.
The approach of having fun in all this is great and by all means go out and spend 10Gs or more on a gun and have fun. But if it is about competition, look a little closer at the results sheet nation wide.
If it is after all about having fun, then why the argument? Only competitive people should be arguing over this crap. If you want to have fun, shoot it anyway you wish to, i really don't care. Just don't sell me bullshit.
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Deano 29
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Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Tony,
From what I can see I was the only one who mentioned the fun, I am in agreeance with the comments in relation to blind records standing alone to marked. Anyways I will stay out if this as I'm not selling anyone anything but I know I try to enjoy all sports I undertake. Goodluck fellas!!
From what I can see I was the only one who mentioned the fun, I am in agreeance with the comments in relation to blind records standing alone to marked. Anyways I will stay out if this as I'm not selling anyone anything but I know I try to enjoy all sports I undertake. Goodluck fellas!!
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Dean, the comment to fun has nothing to do with anything you have said, the fun bit goes way back. I like some of the others do appreciate your views from another source not tainted by history.
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BRT
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Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Well, I'll say it again. Back to my original post. THE OFFICIAL RULES. that is all that counts
Some of you guys do not want to acknowledge the official rules now so that is your issue but it does not mean you can go round saying something shot using some other way which is not distinguished in the official rules is an Australian record. It says in the rules what Australian records are.
The current small group record in Light Gun is 2.067". Doesn't matter how or what system it was shot. It was shot in a match that complied with the OFFICIAL rules and therefore meets the criteria. A small group one inch larger therefore is not an Australian record. End of story, that is what I said.
As to the current rules, they were formulated between the 3 clubs holding regular program of annual events at the time. Canberra, Townsville and Brisbane. JR was representing Townsville and most of the changes to the drafts at the time were at his suggestion. One of those was to include 6 match aggregate records and they were agreed and added. Nothing was even mentioned at the time about having some separate records for small groups or having separate result sheets or separate matches. He represented his club and eventually after two drafts all clubs agreed. Then later the QRA took those to the board meeting of the NRAA and they were approved in 2008. More recently, like in the last 6 months, the board placed one of their board members to be in charge of reviewing these rules because someone (a person on this forum I guess) put up a proposal to change the system to have two separate results sheets at every match and even separate matches and records for those shooting blind or marked. That board member I understand negotiated with the 5 clubs and eventually a vote was taken and the results were... no change. So the rules as originally approved in 2008 were again confirmed and this is now published in the NRAA SSR's.
It's interesting that some like to try and personalise an attack here, usually to me. but I had nothing to do with this latest review. I know about it because our club co-ordinator keep us informed. But you guys like to have a person to blame and you often point the finger at me. It's probably because I am not one to back off and do not put up with your type of shit. So I guess its normal to focus your attack on me. It doesn't matter what system I choose to shoot in any match because I choose both. No wonder many other people do not want to post on this forum because if they aren't sucking up to you guys they get blasted. Real school yard bully stuff.
If you want to shoot like one of the organisations in the USA then get your gear together, on the plane and go over there. The IBS guys are great fellas. They will even welcome you guys. Maybe not for a second trip. Otherwise start up some other breakaway organisation and go away because the majority in Australia have spoken. It's obvious you don't like it, but stiff. The rest of us are getting on it with having a great time. The last Championship match here in Brisbane was just that. Great fun. Maybe because we didn't have ANY of you agitators here eh?
Stuart Elliott
Some of you guys do not want to acknowledge the official rules now so that is your issue but it does not mean you can go round saying something shot using some other way which is not distinguished in the official rules is an Australian record. It says in the rules what Australian records are.
The current small group record in Light Gun is 2.067". Doesn't matter how or what system it was shot. It was shot in a match that complied with the OFFICIAL rules and therefore meets the criteria. A small group one inch larger therefore is not an Australian record. End of story, that is what I said.
As to the current rules, they were formulated between the 3 clubs holding regular program of annual events at the time. Canberra, Townsville and Brisbane. JR was representing Townsville and most of the changes to the drafts at the time were at his suggestion. One of those was to include 6 match aggregate records and they were agreed and added. Nothing was even mentioned at the time about having some separate records for small groups or having separate result sheets or separate matches. He represented his club and eventually after two drafts all clubs agreed. Then later the QRA took those to the board meeting of the NRAA and they were approved in 2008. More recently, like in the last 6 months, the board placed one of their board members to be in charge of reviewing these rules because someone (a person on this forum I guess) put up a proposal to change the system to have two separate results sheets at every match and even separate matches and records for those shooting blind or marked. That board member I understand negotiated with the 5 clubs and eventually a vote was taken and the results were... no change. So the rules as originally approved in 2008 were again confirmed and this is now published in the NRAA SSR's.
It's interesting that some like to try and personalise an attack here, usually to me. but I had nothing to do with this latest review. I know about it because our club co-ordinator keep us informed. But you guys like to have a person to blame and you often point the finger at me. It's probably because I am not one to back off and do not put up with your type of shit. So I guess its normal to focus your attack on me. It doesn't matter what system I choose to shoot in any match because I choose both. No wonder many other people do not want to post on this forum because if they aren't sucking up to you guys they get blasted. Real school yard bully stuff.
If you want to shoot like one of the organisations in the USA then get your gear together, on the plane and go over there. The IBS guys are great fellas. They will even welcome you guys. Maybe not for a second trip. Otherwise start up some other breakaway organisation and go away because the majority in Australia have spoken. It's obvious you don't like it, but stiff. The rest of us are getting on it with having a great time. The last Championship match here in Brisbane was just that. Great fun. Maybe because we didn't have ANY of you agitators here eh?
Stuart Elliott
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
You have to be kidding Stuart. Stop with the poor bugger me act and face up to the fact that in 2004 you fucked up. You went directly against what you preached to me and anyone else who cared to listen about the quickest way to fuck a discipline was to screw with the rules. Well you achieved that and then some. Do not shift the blame onto those that changed nothing or try to imply that we had some sort of input into the NEED TO CHANGE the rules. The draft was to fix something that few saw as being fucked and was a direct reflection of what YOU saw as the right direction for 1K. We just didn't accept the change, and still don't. Nothing has changed for us up here and is not likely to. We will always cater for anyone wishing to shoot 1K in any manner set within the rules, Dave is doing that in Dubbo, Paul is no doubt doing it in Adelaide.
Look at the FACTS. Rules before 2004, no issues with either club. After November 2004, alienate most all of the Victorian shooters where some still don't shoot, place us in an unnecessary position of having to decide what to do. We object but concede to keep the peace. Foolishly. So this is where we are because in principal we knew this was wrong. The catalyst, one set of dumb rules that were dumb then, are dumb now and will be dumb in the future. There is a parallel with the Hunter rules here in Queensland and more recently with the Fly, all of which have your fingerprints all over them. Passion fingers. From a large community of LR shooters, STOP FUCKING WITH RULES!!!
I have no idea how this got to records and such, but enjoy the one the marked system has because it may not last very long. When it's gone, well Richard will have a memory and a nice photoshopped image of it.
Like i said, don't sell me bullshit.
Look at the FACTS. Rules before 2004, no issues with either club. After November 2004, alienate most all of the Victorian shooters where some still don't shoot, place us in an unnecessary position of having to decide what to do. We object but concede to keep the peace. Foolishly. So this is where we are because in principal we knew this was wrong. The catalyst, one set of dumb rules that were dumb then, are dumb now and will be dumb in the future. There is a parallel with the Hunter rules here in Queensland and more recently with the Fly, all of which have your fingerprints all over them. Passion fingers. From a large community of LR shooters, STOP FUCKING WITH RULES!!!
I have no idea how this got to records and such, but enjoy the one the marked system has because it may not last very long. When it's gone, well Richard will have a memory and a nice photoshopped image of it.
Like i said, don't sell me bullshit.
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Hey Tony. Name calling belongs in the schoolyard.
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Stuart,
As far as the rules go, you have said, and the rules do too, that there are TWO different methods that may be used to shoot your target. By definition this means the methods are different, and should be differentiated as such in the results. The fact that this wasn't provided for in the update of the rules was either a gross oversight, or the people that are driving the agenda to changed to marked shooting don't want the general shooter to see that in just about all instances, the results from marked shooting are inferior to blind. Remember the old proverb, 'one swallow does not a summer make'. While the rules don't require the distinction to be stated, nor do they exclude such distinction.
Whwn you claim all clubs agreed with the changes, you may be mistaking the resignation of the Townsville Club to the ongoing torrent of BS being thrown about.
Jeff
As far as the rules go, you have said, and the rules do too, that there are TWO different methods that may be used to shoot your target. By definition this means the methods are different, and should be differentiated as such in the results. The fact that this wasn't provided for in the update of the rules was either a gross oversight, or the people that are driving the agenda to changed to marked shooting don't want the general shooter to see that in just about all instances, the results from marked shooting are inferior to blind. Remember the old proverb, 'one swallow does not a summer make'. While the rules don't require the distinction to be stated, nor do they exclude such distinction.
Whwn you claim all clubs agreed with the changes, you may be mistaking the resignation of the Townsville Club to the ongoing torrent of BS being thrown about.
Jeff
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
I seem to remember all extant Clubs and their officials were consulted and their amendments included. This includes the relevant people in Townsville.
Canberra was. And now it is an NRAA discipline shot on NRAA ranges in Australia. Just like it is a UK RA discipline for ranges who want to do it in the UK.
The fact of the matter is that a 2 inch group, witnessed by independent fellow shooters is still a 2 inch group.
Canberra was. And now it is an NRAA discipline shot on NRAA ranges in Australia. Just like it is a UK RA discipline for ranges who want to do it in the UK.
The fact of the matter is that a 2 inch group, witnessed by independent fellow shooters is still a 2 inch group.
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Wookie,
No one is disputing your group, good group, well done.
To say all amendments from all clubs were accepted is just plain horse shit. We had to fight tooth and nail to get 6 match aggregates included, and I am informed that the original proposal didn't even include a group section at all. You might want to try to get hold of the various proposals and proposed amendments before you go pushing that barrow, cause it stinks.
Jeff
No one is disputing your group, good group, well done.
To say all amendments from all clubs were accepted is just plain horse shit. We had to fight tooth and nail to get 6 match aggregates included, and I am informed that the original proposal didn't even include a group section at all. You might want to try to get hold of the various proposals and proposed amendments before you go pushing that barrow, cause it stinks.
Jeff
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
What year would that be Richard? We have everything dating right back to day one on file and i am smelling bullshit again. Unless you have specific amendments dating pre November 2004, this argument will be dead in the water.
Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Since I wrote the draft and I specifically wrote about group details I suggest this is yet another unproductive discussion.
Tony, go and grow the sport just stop boring people with the same old arguments.
Tony, go and grow the sport just stop boring people with the same old arguments.
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Deano 29
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Re: ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Res
Gents,
The one thing i would like to see more of, and this goes for f class aswell, in America ( and i know people have already said that this is not the US ) they have a national series every year and i think that is a great idea. Like most sports a national championship would be a great draw card as having the title of "Australian Champion" would be a great title to have. Records would be seperate of course but every one would be shooting on the same day on the same range which would level things out and the best guy on the day, weekend would end up on top. Now this is where it gets tricky, having marked and blind would be the MAJOR obsticle in the sense that there would be two classes which from what i have read is not catered for under the current rules.
I know this is off topic but i think we need to take a breath and move in a positive direction. Being new to the sport it sadens me to see the devision that exists currently. From what i can see in the results here we have some world class competitors shooting some world class groups and scores.
Perhaps a commitee of some sort needs to formed with members from each side with some independants to nut it out and come to an agreement on where LRBR needs to be headed. As i stated previously being new to the sport of LRBR i would hate to see it implode on itself and disapear into the history books. Just my opinion guys and maybe this has already happened but from what i see we need to come together as a sport and drive this train toward the future and move on from the past.
Deano
The one thing i would like to see more of, and this goes for f class aswell, in America ( and i know people have already said that this is not the US ) they have a national series every year and i think that is a great idea. Like most sports a national championship would be a great draw card as having the title of "Australian Champion" would be a great title to have. Records would be seperate of course but every one would be shooting on the same day on the same range which would level things out and the best guy on the day, weekend would end up on top. Now this is where it gets tricky, having marked and blind would be the MAJOR obsticle in the sense that there would be two classes which from what i have read is not catered for under the current rules.
I know this is off topic but i think we need to take a breath and move in a positive direction. Being new to the sport it sadens me to see the devision that exists currently. From what i can see in the results here we have some world class competitors shooting some world class groups and scores.
Perhaps a commitee of some sort needs to formed with members from each side with some independants to nut it out and come to an agreement on where LRBR needs to be headed. As i stated previously being new to the sport of LRBR i would hate to see it implode on itself and disapear into the history books. Just my opinion guys and maybe this has already happened but from what i see we need to come together as a sport and drive this train toward the future and move on from the past.
Deano