Q 500m Fly Spotting Scopes & Cartridges

[Leeroy]

hehehehe...

Tony, you surely do love diggin' holes....


Cheers
Leeroy

[trevort]

no dog in this fight and Tony, I have a lot of respect for your skill and knowledge and preparedness to share it but to use old fashioned parlance,'

You've been "called out" and we arent seeing you respond the way your reputation would suggest is appropriate

[Curtley78]

Fellas,

I would be more then willing to be the Independent arbiter in this debacle and more then willing to test the scope at Silverdale for fault such as a shifting zero and I would be more then willing to pass on the findings of such trial.

Regards

Sean

[Ned Kelly]

G'day all,
I know some topics go off on a tangent, but this is ridiculous! It seems to have gone onto another dimension and can't find its way back!

How about someone starting other topics so we can stick to the original post please?

That's how forums should run (at least I thought so!)

Rant Over

Cheerio Ned

[frakka]

No horse in this race either but can't get this tune out of my mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8vINCq_IAI

no offense, just kidding around.......

[jimbo]

G'day all,
I know some topics go off on a tangent, but this is ridiculous! It seems to have gone onto another dimension and can't find its way back!

How about someone starting other topics so we can stick to the original post please?

That's how forums should run (at least I thought so!)

Rant Over

Cheerio Ned

Well, actually....the topic was fine until someone decided to slag off at a product, and now has been well and truly caught out, as shown by the extreme reluctance to take the distributors offer to see it done right.

It makes you wonder doesn't it?

B

[Tony Z]

Well it is like this, you either believe me when i say that the scope has a parallax issue when subjected to a reasonable amount of recoil, or you don't. I stand by my claim 100%.
There is no tracking problem, there is no problem whatsoever of the scope holding POI, there is no shifting of POI while moving through the power range, its optics are clear and when i recently compared it to another identical scope, through my eyes, my scope was optically superior. There is even no noticeable focus problem at the lower ranges of magnification, it is only noticeable at the very narrow focal areas right at the very top end power range of 50 power and above.
It was on the 30 JAT for 2 matches, which is what it was originally purchased for, and was then relegated to duty on the 6 BR Diamondback. It performed well whilst on there, no doubt helping to hand me both sides of the 1K LG six match aggregate records to date, the day aggregate record, and now more recently two groups successively under the inch at 500 meters. That has been done maybe once before by PVM i believe in how many years of the Fly across Australia? The six match for this year at 500 meters is 1.5xx" where the largest group of the six is a 2.00x". So you can sort of maybe now understand why i could be a little reluctant to send it off.
I am not really interested in what anyone else says or what hype is associated with any product, i am always looking for a performance item, no matter what brand it is. So when i look at this year in total, i shot the best ever scores, and groups aggregated at 1K and then some at 500 meters with what i consider a slightly injured scope. What i need to evaluate is how much of that success can be traced back to the March. Now in total that is a pretty good endorsement from someone that rarely, if ever divulges what he uses, apart from maybe bullets. This is all coming from the coal face so to speak and not from some marketing machine that goes into damage control, mustering the troops when in need, when some upstart challenges their product. None of you, apart from those up this way, would have known what i use, unless a shooter from here happened to mention it down South.

Now i have bought another scope after some months of research and indecision with what to do with that March. I will trial the two head to head, working around the focus problem if i have to, but i am certain that a hundred pounds of heavy gun is not going to have a recoil effect on any scope. What i will be trying to find is if the March has the edge, as claimed by many. Right now, optically at both 1K and 500 meters i find it no different to a number of scopes i have had. I will never tell you that the March has an edge in our conditions up here. It clearly has not and anyone who claims otherwise, is very welcome to come on up here and tell me otherwise. I can arrange a line up of every piece of glass ever made to show you that you are the product of repeat bullshit marketing. On a clear day, i will grant that the March has a slight edge if you want very precise aim, and i have used this to my advantage, but i will only go so far as to say that that could be from pure magnification range and not optical quality. Optics is one thing, but POI control is another, and that alone could easily sway me toward retaining the March. Clearly it goes back to an exact elevation day in day out and if the bullets are good enough, the March will give you the group as i have repeatedly done. The zero on this rifle while the March was on it has never been touched and i repeatedly remove the barrel for inspection and change to other calibers. That says a lot for the scope as well as modern gunsmithing techniques.
One of those two scopes will go on the new HG and if that is the March, it will be sent off to be doctored. If it is the other, then the March still gets repaired and then sold. The 30 JAT LG will sport the 35 x Leupold, as it does right now.

Now how many of you are in the position to question my logic or methodology? Show me your long range achievements to date before you tell me what to do with my scope. Most of you would have never seen a 250 score in the Fly, nor a 3 inch group at a 1000 yards, other than by pure fluke, and can only dream of a sub inch group at 500 meters. I am not in this game to pander to the wishes of others and i will not bow to any who are joined at the hip through their wallets. What i am in this game for is to find out what works and i do that in my way.

[jimbo]

Fellas,

I would be more then willing to be the Independent arbiter in this debacle and more then willing to test the scope at Silverdale for fault such as a shifting zero and I would be more then willing to pass on the findings of such trial.

Regards

Sean

Sean, you can't be serious. This is not some union dispute or arbitration matter.

Do you really think that you have more expertise at judging whether a scope is faulty or not, compared to the actual people that build them? Come on. The scope has to go back to Japan. Period.

It's not a debacle either. Someone has made a derogatory statement and has now shown the World extreme reluctance to hand over the evidence for proving.

There is of course always the possibility of course that Tony "may have been mistaken" about the reported problem, and a simple apology could fix the whole matter. One can only wonder.

B

[Tony Z]

Actually Brendan, my apologies to you on this last entry if you have indeed read it. I have no issue with you so therefore i have decided to delete it.

[frakka]

I sense the parties are edging a little closer, just like my glass and this 2004 Vasse Felix shiraz:

Just to recap on the theme music, it was written around 1897 by Julius Fucik as the Entry of the Gladiators but sadly these days conjures memories of clowns and jugglers. It springs to mind occasionally when Joe Hokey speaks publicly or the Australian denies leaning on its journalists, and most definitely when McClelland reassures that Wikileaks character he is welcome home……..

Anyway I digress……back to the fray…….

[BRT]

Yeah really top stuff Tony. You sure are doing yourself and the sport great favours ...eh?
We also just love hearing about how well you two shoot up there in Townsvillage too. It isn't the centre of the universe but I'm sure you can see it from there.

You've been "called out" Tony. There are many, many people posting saying that too. Hundreds maybe thousands watching it also. Time to either apolgise and withdraw or send the scope back. It should not have been that hard.

Here's an offer. For anyone to send any scope (any brand) out of Australia you need to first obtain a DECO permit. The application form is called DECO 01. http://www.defence.gov.au/strategy/deco/default.htm
After you get that permit approved (15 + working days) then you use it to get a Customs clearance from Customs called a b957
http://www.ipscsa.asn.au/Resources/B957_ics.pdf

You can do all that and send the scope to DEON Optical in Japan.
Or else if you wish you can send the scope to me and I will send it to Japan which I can do quickly because I have an annual permit in place. All I would need to get is the b957. Your cost? Postage and insurance to me.

Up to you. But the deal is we (BRT), Jim Kelbly and DEON are trying to stand behind a product that you have vilified. You did not buy your scopes from us or from Jim Kelbly for that matter but Jim Kelbly has detailed a simple solve and you have dug a bigger and bigger hole for yourself.
The time has come. put up or shut up!

[James A Kelbly]

TonyZ,

Jees ease up. I really do not care if you send the March back , it definetly is your call. But we here at Kelbly's and March want to see all problems , so again we want to see the problem and if there is a potential problem with the scopes.We are not seeing or hearing of the problem you have and that is why I am interested in getting this scope back to Deon, especially since you said that you have had two with this same problem.

I understand that you are very good at the Fly shoots and we congratulate you for this, but people on this board trust your advice due to your abilities and that again is why we take this problem seriously. Maybe some people on here do not trust your motives, but I do not know you and do not know how you are. So I do not pass judgement on to you.

If you decide to send it back let me know in private email to me jim@kelbly.com and we will get your scope taken care of. We leave it in your hands. Good luck in future events.

Jim

[Tony Z]

Stuart you can point the finger at me however much you wish, but no-one knew of this scopes issue except me right up until i blabbed about it on this very thread.
It seems that it is fine for you to announce to the world how well you have done shooting across the planet while sporting a March scope, but god forbid that i should do the same and then claim the March is ordinary in our environment. The difference? I am not bullshiiting to the masses about a product i know is not perfect, nor am i profiting from it.

It must really irk you that i will never respect you or tow your line where it is clear that if someone has something good to say about this product that you are welcome, but say something bad and the dogs are set upon you. Your list of character assassinations of people within this sport is long and loud and i have heard it from your very mouth as have many others. Now i am part of that list and have been for some time, haven't i?
The truth is this Stuart. That scope would have been sent back to the dealer long ago if it was anyone but you. It is a legitimate second hand purchase from a scope sold in this country. Me sending the scope to you would have ended in you fucking me around endlessly not to mention the denial of a product malfunction. True? But then again it may have been the opposite because you know that i will say whatever to whoever. So i guess we will never know.

So there, now everyone knows why that scope was never sent, and likely will never be sent to you or anyone connected directly to you. Sending it to Japan is and always was my only option.

[curan]

................people on this board trust your advice due to your abilities and that again is why we take this problem seriously. Maybe some people on here do not trust your motives, but I do not know you and do not know how you are. So I do not pass judgement on to you............

+1, and spoken like a gentleman.

I haven't enjoyed the direction this post has taken, as I dislike anyone's credibility being questioned, especially someone who's posts I have read and enjoyed in the past. I naturally assume that the scope issue originally mentioned by Tony was in good faith. I strongly doubt that he was looking to bring all this flak headed for him. I understand that the products performance was questioned by Tony, which gives others the right to defend or comment on the product. Fair enough. But how that has turned into the current slagfest seems alien on a site I have always enjoyed for it's friendliness, and it's willingness to share experience and advise, both good and bad.

One bright moment of this (for me) has been the posts from James. It's nice to think someone so prominent in the industry would involve himself personally. And with a total lack of aggression.

Now, as for the original post:

I couldn't hit a target at 1k with a laser guided missile, but I reckon if you're having trouble with mirages, aim for the middle one of the three images!

regards, curan

[petevm]

Yet again I ask people to keep to the original thread of this post. Personally, I think that Geoff's original questions have been more than adequately answered. I will not comment on the 'slagging match' that seems to have to developed (even though I have an opinion). JR has started a new thread regarding scopes for long-range shooting - perhaps we can shift the pertinent aspects of this forum thread over so that Geoff can ask the Administrator to close this one forever!!!! - When it comes down to this level (slagging-match) we need to move on as it is unlikely that an amicable solution will be found on a public forum.